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Pastor Efrem Smith and Spencer Burke take a break at the National Pastor’s Convention in San Diego, California, to talk about the dream of a Church that transcends the lines of race, ethnicity and theological divides. Although he grew up going to an all-black church, Efrem remembers attending an event when he was 17 where there were multiple races and ethnicities gathered together and he thought, “This is the way church is supposed to be.” Today he pastors a church that is multi-racial-a body of Whites, African Americans, Asians, Latinos-and he challenges listeners to decide, “Should church be different? Should we rethink our vision of church as Black/White/Charismatic/mainline/etc.?”
Efrem and Spencer discuss how it was important for immigrants and first generations to have churches that were single ethnicities or theologies. They were safe places, places to assimilate and strengthen their community. But after second and third generations-perhaps this generation-people have moved beyond color or denominational barriers. Perhaps the church should be dreaming and casting a vision toward a broader multi-ethnic Church. (In fact, the Church has not moved as fast as the nation and is one of the institutions that tends to remain segregated-Black pastor, Black congregation; White pastor, White congregation). Efrem’s question for his and other churches is this: Can we build a church that looks like heaven? He says, “Let’s raise up a new generation in Church that can be a prophetic voice to the nation.” The next revival will not just be about people coming to Christ, but about renewing the relevancy of Church. We need a holistic revival that is not just about “do you accept Jesus” but “will you give the Church another chance?”
Individual Questions
- How have your thoughts changed about race since Barack Obama became president?
- Do you think you are post-racial in politics, entertainment, music, sports, or church?
- What are you still “fighting for” in church? Liberal/conservative or old/new?
Small Group or Staff Questions
- How have we kept any particular group out of our Church or made them use “the other door?” (Women, children, racial groups, lifestyle groups?)
- What would a post-racial (or post-theological, denominational, etc.) church look like?
- How can we celebrate next generation/post-generation expressions of faith in our church?
Books by Efrem Smith
FEEDS
Highest Rated
- Pete Rollins – Resurrection as Insurrection (+153 rating, 59 votes)
- Brian McLaren – Navigating Through A New Kind of Christianity (+151 rating, 57 votes)
- Phyllis Tickle – Beyond Denominations, the Hyphenated Church (+144 rating, 54 votes)
- Andrew Marin Pt 2- Elevating the Conversation Between the Church and the Gay Community (+121 rating, 36 votes)
- Philip Clayton – Emergence Taking on a Life of its Own (+103 rating, 41 votes)
April 15th, 2009 at 5:56 am
Amen!! Great feature and I could not agree more! Now is the time to bring the Body of Christ together. Check out mosaix. A great organization trying to pursue this very goal. Thanks
April 15th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Beautiful work Spencer – very real – very honest and very helpful
April 15th, 2009 at 7:33 am
I have recently thought “Hey, why is the church (again) lagging behind the culture, and this time in racial diversity?”. This is a great interview. And unity in the Church that overcome race and even silly doctrinal divisions is the way to revival in this generation. It has been something that a few churches in the west suburbs in Chicago have been wondering and experimented with by having church services that partner African-American, Latino-American, Arabic, and Caucasian churches with their various styles. It has been challenging to minister in diversity but it is such a huge blessing when it happens. God always blesses when His children seek to fulfill His dream of unity. I believe unity under Christ in the Body is the Great Apologetic to this society (John 17:1-4). Thanks for the interview Spencer! Can I plug a video that is along this discussion that has other pastors talking about unity as well? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BqvXhMBgbw
April 15th, 2009 at 8:13 am
I woyld say no. The church has had many years to crack this nut, and has failed. It seems to me, that here in America, that racial
Groups tend to gather around each other.
Even the church that claim to be multi racial
Tend to have one race or culture in charge.
I’m not sure if the Christian leadership in this
Country considers race important enough to deal
With head on, as the NFL did with the Rooney rule, which
Stated if you are interviewing for a head coaching position
You should interview at least one minority candidate.
April 15th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Spencer I wish that these videos that you do would get more exposure- as always a reasonable voice speaking kingdom thought. Efram Smith comes from a different perspective explaining things i a way that I wanted to understand but suffer some of what he speaks about- the segregation of the church. Will the church be the last stronghold of the religious, the christian shaman who finds strength in backward thinking?
I’m encouraged that Pastor Smith is able to communicate and connect the dots.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Addressing Trinity in Chicago would have been intellectually honest. Not to mention helpful.
April 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
This video defined “post-black” leadership as people who are aware of and comfortable in their black identity, but who are capable of reaching across cultural barriers, understanding the majority culture, and leading non-black people. I wish that we had heard about “post-white” leadership–white people who are aware of their identity and history as white people, but who consciously work to move outside of white culture. I
So for white people, the road to post-racial society requires us to actually enter into and spend time in a “minority” environment and to actually come to some basic understanding of it. How many of us are willing to do that?
Christopher, a brief comment. Every American church is immersed in white culture, including black churches. The “Afrocentric” attitude of Trinity just means that they make sure that white and black cultures are honored. Most white churches, by comparison, make no space at all for anything that comes out of black culture. If you don’t believe me, go visit and find out for yourself.
April 16th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Thank you for addressing the issue of race and racism. I’m hopeful that more people of faith with thoughtfully address this with more than just words. I think having our eye on the prize is critical! And putting into practice now what we hope will eventually become a larger reality couldn’t be a better path for Christian churches.
My immediate response to seeing the question, “Can the church become post-racial?”, was one of frustration that we are bandying about the wrong word and at the wrong time, when every well-being statistic you can look at across the country shows extreme white privilege and a sizable racial/ethnic gap. This is not by chance. It shows up in almost every category. And its a direct result of slavery and our policy making and community building that favored Whites over anyone else. It’s most likely not intentional racism from anyone nowadays, but racial inequity nonetheless.
That being said, the church should become the conscience and imagination of America, as MLK, Jr. once said. And I think in order to get to post-racial, we cannot just leap-frog over justice and equity for marginalized groups and suffering with those who’ve been and are suffering. And I don’t think Whites should be leading the way or having the most air time, just a few things to pay attention to in our work. And that’s what I feel we’re doing when we go to the “happy place” of post-racial thinking … so quickly or easily. Believe me, I want to go there, but I feel that if a lot of Whites toss that term around in the face of a considerable amount of marginalized people, it won’t go over well. Maybe individual faith communities can practice post-racial community, but it should be tempered with broader stark realities and great humility.
The church is not separate from culture, but quite collusive historically. Hence, we see similar inequities within.
We’re not talking about overt, Jim Crow racism (i.e., race relations), but rather the scaffolding in our communities, however unseen to some/many. “Achieving racial equity may be accomplished through different strategies including – but not limited to – eliminating institutionalized discriminatory policies and practices, and working in neighborhoods of concentrated poverty to improve opportunities for quality education, health, safety, and economic security.” When faith communities do these things with vigor, then their “invitation” and their talk of “post-racial” will make sense, but not before.
Helpful resources I’ve found: the Census, Aspen Institute’s “Structural Racism & Community Building”, Everyday Democracy, PolicyLink, Applied Research Center, PISAB, john powell’s interview on PBS, Sojourners, and so many more.
It’s hard to talk about all this succinctly. My apologies.
April 18th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Je salue à tous les frère en Christ qui utilise ce site.C’est le frere Pape Oumar que le Seigneur vous bénisse.Je demande tous les chrétiens qui utilise ce site web de me donner leur adresse émail.
April 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I ‘m very touched by the various contributions of our brothers.We are the body of Christ must be unity in the church of God because we have a Onely God one Lord who has accepted to die on to cross.Jesus told us in Matthew 28-19; 20.Annoncer the gospel to all nations without racial segregation, nor favoritism or superioté in the body of Christ.Take us hand in hand to develop the Gospel. working for the development of the church Christ.Amen Pape Oumar
April 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Spencer and Efrem–this is great. I have been thinking so much along these lines lately, so it was really good to hear another brother in the Lord say the same thing.
Great interview, and thanks!!!
April 19th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
It is immensely disappointing that Churches are so divided on race lines on Sunday mornings – especially the black- white division. On the other hand, there are bitter tears wept next to hanging trees and disappeared loved ones (James Cone). There is a legacy of grief and anger and shame that we all inherit – not one that we can put down without naming and knowing before forgiving. I think we are like the Israelites in the Sinai – we can cross the Jordan now if we are brave, owning our history and each speaking the parts of the racist world that we have inherited. Or we can wander around for a long time waiting for the living memories to die so that our children or their children can cross. I pray that Jesus will not allow us to wait for a brave future generation but will help this generation to be brave – to name our pain in a mixed setting and start the healing of his body. This is each of our responsibilities. It gives me great hope to hear Pastor Smith speak and I look forward to learning more about his community. Blessings all, Daniel.
April 20th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
I am glad you are providing this service to people who are trying to bring groups together with our common values; we are all in this world together; one God, one world.
Thanks be to God!
Trish Miller
April 21st, 2009 at 7:45 am
I’m ready to work towards reconciliation of all people, together in the living kingdom of God here on earth. I pray for God to show me the way, I’m ready to be the hands and feet and heart. Can it be done? Through Christ ALL things are possible! Are we in a post racial world now? Hardly! But I believe the church can show the world how the healing power of Christ can bring ALL people together – white and of color, gay and straight, rich and poor. A living representation of the future kingdom, here on earth now. I’m ready.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:55 am
This was a wonderful conversation! I belong to a multi-ethnic, economically diverse church in Little Rock, Arkansas, called Mosaic (www.mosaicchurch.net). Being a part of this church for 5 years has changed my life. When I served overseas as a missionary I worked with refugees from all over the world. I remember being in a service where the message was translated into 7 languages and being overwhelmed by the certainty that this is what heaven will be like– when people from every tongue and tribe will be gathered before the throne. I didn’t think churches like that existed in America, but they do– multi-ethnic churches are reaching the world from our own country! God used this to change my calling, and I am now raising support to work at my church. I’m so excited to see how God will continue to change my community and the world, and how He can use me in the multi-ethnic movement! If you’ve never been part of a multi-ethnic worship service, I highly recommend it! And I encourage you to develop true relationships with people of different races and cultures. It will enrich your life and theirs, for the glory of God! stephanie@mosaicchurch.net
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm
[...] church for the next generation 2009 June 23 tags: Church, Race by djchuang “Can a church become post-racial?” Efrem Smith tackles this question over at [...]
June 27th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Multi-racial groups of people whose church life is dominated by being lined up in pews facing one expert doing one-way communication is STILL a LONG ways from being God’s design for His church of crossing boundaries. In this form, the majority of relationships will be friendly and courteous, but still very SHALLOW. In this form, very few churches will even be able to accomplish multi-races lined up in pews. I’m not saying there will be no deep multi-racial relationships. I’m saying the system only will produce a small percentage. Leaders and followers seem to be happy with mediocre percentages doing God’s plan. They are not willing to examine the systemic mediocrity of crowd oriented gatherings that consume 75 -85% of the giving to fluff the experience of the givers.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:13 am
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