Andrew Marin Pt 2- Elevating the Conversation Between the Church and the Gay Community
VOTEPosted on: June 25, 2009
Andrew Marin wants to change the conversation between straight and gay-between conservative evangelical churches, liberal churches, and the gay and lesbian community. Does the conversation have to be, “I’m right and you’re wrong?” asks Spencer Burke, host of ThinkFwd on TheOOZE.TV. Andrew believes both communities are talking past each other instead of loving each other. Progressive Christians and the gay community are focused on finding scientific, academic proof of a gay gene so they can say to conservatives, “Now you have to agree, being gay is a God-given thing and I can be a happy, healthy person of faith.”
On the flip side, the conservative Christians could be shown 20 “gay genes” and it wouldn’t matter, they’d still believe, “Each person, gay or straight, has the ability to choose and to change wrong behavior.” They’ll hold up ex-gays or celibates as proof that the traditional interpretation of scripture holds true. And so, each side is fighting for something they hold to be true and regardless of “proof” one way or another, they are not going to simply change their long-held, ingrained beliefs.
Burke and Marin talk about sin. It’s a politically divisive word, and might seem to give us permission to discount or disconnect with people who we call sinners. But Marin says, Jesus never said, “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” What Jesus says is, “Love the sinner, and hate your own sin.” (But isn’t it always easier to fix someone else’s speck that work on our own log!)
Let’s approach it a different way, says Andrew. You don’t have to change what you believe, just live it out differently. Yes, he says, we are justified by our faith, but faith is nothing if we don’t do anything with it. We’ve been given the opportunity to do something with our faith-to love (with our actions) a group of people who some might consider our “enemies.”
Andrew suggests a few ideas for engaging the communities in our own back yard, and encouraging discussion around faith, sexuality and culture. Help your church partner with a secular gay and lesbian group, cleaning up the community or building or cleaning up old homes. Have your youth group partner with the gay-straight alliance at their high school. Andrew believes future generations will judge us on the way we (the Church) work with the gay and lesbian communities. He is seeing churches around the country changing their structure and systems to encourage dialogue and love between their communities. This, he says, is great reason to hope.
Personal Reflections:
- Are there groups that I have been talking “past” instead of “with?” Have I been using labels to discount or dis-engage my “enemy” instead of engaging?
- Have I missed the opportunity to have a conversation with a gay or lesbian friend, family member or co-worker? Or, have I needed to know how the conversation will turn out before I begin it (who “wins” or “loses”)?
Small Group or Staff Questions:
- How can we elevate the conversation starting with the “A-B-C’s” -beginning the conversation, instead of jumping to the end (X-Y-Zs)? How does that include both faith words and works?
- What would happen if a GLBT (gay, lesbian, bi, transgender) came to your church?
- How can we as an organization apply the principal of “log and speck” in our conversation with the gay community?
Resources:
Get 30% OFF Andrew’s new book, “Love is an Orientation” by clicking this link!
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June 25th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Great job Spencer. The series with Marin is really well done and much appreciated. I hope there will be more.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:49 am
OK, I’m hooked. So who’s distributing the book to the UK trade, please? IVP UK don’t list it on their website…
June 25th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Phil, I have relatives who live in the UK and they bought theirs off of Amazon UK. I was also at Spring Harvest in April and I heard they were going to be distrubuting it as well. But I know it’s on Amazon UK for sure!
I read Andrew’s blog as well and he is scheduled to be in the UK in September and I also heard he’ll be speaking there in April as well at Spring Harvest. My relatives are looking forward to hearing him in person. Hope that helps.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Andrew believes both communities are talking past each other instead of loving each other.
I’m a little confused about how the LGBT community has been “unloving” to the evangelical community. We’d mostly like to be left alone by evangelicals and to not have evangelic politicians always railing against us to score political points.
It seems like there is some sort of effort to draw a false equality along the line of “we’ve all been mean to each other” when in fact it’s really been more of a one way street on that front. But hey, if this means evangelicals will stop being so anti-gay, I’m happy.
Finally, a theological query: I’m quite familiar with the theological arguments for the sinfulness of homosexuality (Romans 1; Leviticus; Sodom and Gomorrah; Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve), but what about trans people? I’d be curious to know if or why evangelicals view transgendered people as being sinful.
In any event, precious few openly LGBT people actually show up at evangelical churches because we know we’re not welcome in such environments, so Question 2 seems rather hypothetical.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Oh, and just in case anyone else wants to read his blog, it’s http://love-is-an-orientation.blogspot.com I just went there for the first time a few days ago and it’s fascinating stuff.
And to Spencer and theooze.tv: Thank you guys so much for doing this! My thought is that today, everyone knows someone who is gay and so many conservatives don’t know what to do and out of fear, they just do nothing. And Spencer, you brought up the best point (because this is where I’m at as well) – it’s the more liberal progressives that need to ALSO realize that there needs to be movement on their end if, as Andrew says in the video, there can be any expectation for significant things to happen for the Kingdom.
Stubbornly thinking we have it all figured out is as bad, in my opinion, as those who ostrasize GLBT people because they think it’s a sin over all sins. And I didn’t actually realize I was doing that until watching these videos. Thanks again and God Bless!
June 25th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Anon, I appreciate your thoughts and would like to note that “both communities” is actually referring to the conservative evangelicals and the progressive liberal christians dealing with the issue within the church and not the gay community itself. In fact, in Pt 1 Andrew even makes the statement that the gay community is the most loving and open community out there and that they embody the message of Jesus in that way. I can see the confusion now that you mention it.
I might not consider myself a typical evangelical but you are more than welcome in my faith community, free of judgment of this so-called sin
June 25th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
i am not for sure what the confusion is. it is simple, man and woman, not man and man, woman and woman, manwoman and manwoman, womanman and womanman.
there is no way around it. i am sorry but it is simple, there is no way around it.
anyone is welcome in our church, it really does not matter who or what you are.
the bible is clear
June 26th, 2009 at 5:47 am
[...] http://theooze.tv/featured/andrew-marin-pt-2-elevating-the-conversation-between-the-church-and-the-g... [...]
June 26th, 2009 at 8:28 am
Great conversation. Hopefully we can all learn to love as Christ loved/loves and feel secure enough in His love for us that we are willing to love others who are different, who we don’t understand, and to open enough to the fact that we don’t have all the answers.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Thank you Andrew for doing something I wish I had the courage to achieve. I have attempted to fight this fight within the traditional church structure with very limited success.
I have chosen to change to a more accepting United Church of Christ structure for my family and myself. The 40 years that Andrew speaks about is now my goal. My children will understand that loving your neighbor as your self means. All of our children are our best hope and changing this conversation. It will take time and energy, but they will carry this forward.
Something that Spencer said caught my attention upon reflection. Maybe I need to re-think who my neighbor is? Maybe I am suppose to stay in the conservative evangelical circles and love the person most unlike myself? The conservative evangelical!!
June 26th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I have had the great pleasure of seeing Andrew speak at several events and his heart is amazing. I too second the comment of wishing I had the courage to step out and do something significant for the kingdom of God. Each of us are children of God and deserve to know him intimately…Thanks to Andrew and his thoughtfulness that I may now have the courage and tools to move forward in loving my gay friends…I have just bought the book and look forward to reading it…Additionally, thanks to the person who gave the blog address it is really awesome and I am looking forward to being a part of those discussions…I encourage anyone who has a chance to hear him speak live should make an effort!!!
June 26th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
[...] 2 of Andrew Marin’s Ooze.tv Interview Posted on June 26, 2009 by jasonsmith http://theooze.tv/featured/andrew-marin-pt-2-elevating-the-conversation-between-the-church-and-the-g... Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Andrew Marin on Ooze.TVThe Daily Dish Posterous: [...]
July 3rd, 2009 at 8:27 am
The video stops loading for me @ 2:18. Can anyone help me with this or is there another location on the web I can finish this great video?!
On a personal note, as a Christian man who is openly gay, I have found The Ooze and others like their community of believers to be a mirror of God’s grace and humility found only in His Son Jesus the Christ. I thank you to all who decide not to JUST believe in Jesus but actually allow yourselves to be taken by the Spirit to begin FOLLOWING and LIVING like Jesus.
MJ
July 6th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
There are some other great resources at the Institute for the Study of Sexual Identity (Regent University) here: http://www.sexualidentityinstitute.org/
February 15th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
As a bi, this duo-posting was quite encouraging. I’ve seen several videos that steer into the direction of “we-love-you-but-you-still-gotta-change-you-damned-sinner-read-your-Bible-heathen-this-is-a-perversion-worthy-of-the-lake-of-fire-and-we’ll-cast-you-in-ourselves-by-the-way-Christ-loves-you-remember-to-tithe-and-take-communion”. I was married to someone who found homosexuality an abomination and made disgusting jokes about it constantly but would attempt to sway me into threesomes with friends. Apparently girl-girl-guy isn’t a sin. If you’re married.
I’m no longer with him and have found a new church community that is much more welcoming. It is a relief to find that there are places and people where Christ can be found, and where I don’t have to fight anymore, where I can rest.