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Transcendence beyond our belief systems. Inclusion. Mystery. Humility. These are the topics as ThinkFwd host Spencer Burke catches up with Tim King—author, activist, and President/CEO of The David Group International (a peace and reconciliation Non-Governmental Organization). Spencer kicks off the conversation with a potentially controversial question, “Why is Christianity (and many religions) so fraught with doomsday theology—with a catastrophic end to the world a primary focus?”
Tim thinks it is because we let our belief systems become the end point, rather than simply being pointers toward the mysterious, toward God. When we read the text as a map with pointers (rather than literally), just as Jesus points us toward God, then we will recast the future in a constructive rather than a catastrophic story.
The present moment is all we really have. The past is gone and the future is not here yet. Let’s not become overly obsessed with the future so that we waste the present moment.
At best, Tim says, our belief systems are pointers, not our identity. If we move to this way of thinking, then we can meet others at a place “beyond our belief systems” in an area of mystery and humility. We can transcend our belief system and be inclusive. The mentality is not one of “all or nothing.” We do not have to forfeit our beliefs to contribute to the lives of others.
If we believe that God is reality, a presence, the unnameable, who dwells in mystery beyond us, then we can believe that we are “beyond our belief system.”And we can celebrate together with others of many different belief systems. On the other hand, if we have a conversion mentality that believes we have to convert people to our belief system, then it is as if we’ve drawn a line and said, “We can only fellowship with you if you come over to our side.”
Spencer asks Tim what he hopes the future holds for people of faith. Tim’s reply: “Lay down our conversion mentality and take up a contributing mentality. If this happens, there’s no end to the global ills that can be taken care of in our lifetime.”
Personal Reflections:
- Do you see your belief system as your identity or as pointers to God?
- How do you feel your belief system would be different in the frameworks of conversion, conflict and cooperation?
Small Group or Staff Questions:
- If the “gold standard” for Christians is Christ, and our currency is our beliefs put into action, how is our “cash flow” as a community?
- How would we rate our community with the Fruit of the Spirit—as nourishment or ammunition?
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January 6th, 2010 at 11:49 pm
VERY insightful interview! In case people are curious, Tim maintains a very lively blog over at Post-Christian, and is involved with The David Group and Presence International.
January 11th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Tim King is son of Max King — both are credited/blamed for starting a belief system that has come to known as “hyperpreterism”. Hyperpreterism advocates 4 main things, in complete contradiction to the UNITED Christian testimony.
HYPERPRETERISM’S MAIN BELIEFS:
1. Jesus returned once and for all in the 1st-century
2. The resurrection of the believers happened in the 1st-century and was non-physical
3. The judgment of the wicked and righteous happened in the 1st-century
4. No end of sin, no culmination of God’s plan for this planet.
This is important because the King’s are trying to supplant historic, theological, doctrinal Christianity with their own private interpretations which are more about relativism.
Jesus didn’t say He was the “pointer” to God, but rather He IS God! That is the reason some picked up stones and were ready to put Jesus to death. Jesus knew His claim would cause division. He never wanted or expected that Christians would “come together and fellowship” with non-Christians, let alone “celebrate” paganism.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
Jesus as depicted throughout most of the gospel narratives proclaimed a message: the Reign of God. He wasn’t the message itself, except for those of a more reformed theological bent.
I believe that someone really needs to write a book specifically toward the content of what Tim King was getting at, and I’m not suggesting another book on eschatology.
I believe the crux of the issue has much more to do with modern day scholastics on exactly what the Bible is and what it was really meant to convey to its posterior readers. I believe that there is ultimatley One Mystery God of which Jesus happens to be the primary pointer for me as well. And when I say such a thing, I am not putting down other meaningful pointers leading us toward the Divine.
I believe that God is real and true, but that the Bible is first and foremost the spiritual writings of both the Israelites and first century Jews/Christians, yet there is one Spirit of God which is expressed through, amongst other things, the sacred writings of the world’s enduring religions. Having said that, I can still unequivically say that both the Bible and Jesus are core to my faith in God. And, watch out, because there are millions of us out there of similar bent who are getting very (and I mean very) tired of either fundamentalists or strict evangelical conservatives telling the rest of us how things are really “supposed to be.”
When you get right down to it, we worship an all-wise, yet hidden God in a world of many religions that are either capable of tremendous good or horrendous evil (and I believe that Christianity is at the top of this list pertaining to either extreme).
January 12th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
It’s worse than that, Roderick. He’s actually a really nice guy as well!
Hi Tim. Great thoughts Buddy.
January 13th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Just want to clear up Roderick’s point #4.
Sin has come to an end…Sin…separation from God.
If you are using the word “sin” as a verb…a choice that leads to painful consequences then I see where you are coming from.
But then…what would the tree of life in Revelation be there for – the one whose leaves are for the healing of the nations – if no one needs ‘healing’ in the new earth?
I think when we get a clearer picture of what “sin and death” mean…we can see the amazing beauty of this present moment…being one with our creator and knowing nothing can ever separate us from him..Sin removed.
January 14th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
Love it!
We’re IN the fulfillment, but we’re learning how to live that out, here and now, through the renewal of the mind, the healing of our wounds, letting (our) lies be replaced with (God’s) truths.
Dis be da Kingdom…
FREEDOM & responsibility…!
(methinks most prefer rules and “safety”)
Go, Tim!!!
January 24th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Most know that the Apostle Paul would be unacceptable to pastor many evangelical/fundamentalist congregations because of his past/history. (Has he really “converted” can we really trust him?)
If Jesus were to arrive today, I wonder how many of these same people would accept His messiahship? (You know, He does forgive inspite of what the law says. And He’s too darned friendly with those people who are clearly sinners BEFORE they “repent” and accept Him as their “Savior.” He CAN’T be the real one!)
Sound familier?
Keep at it Tim!
January 30th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
I’m not sure what this is…but it’s not Christianity.
February 1st, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Totally messed up. This is what happens when you have a bad eschatology. When my Lord returns its going to be alot better than this!!!!!1
February 1st, 2010 at 11:25 pm
The Mystery of God HAS been revealed:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
Rom 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith
Eph 3:3 how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words,
Eph 3:4 whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit
And flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The Kingdom of God is not of this world:
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.
None of what he says can measure up to the Word of God!
February 1st, 2010 at 11:34 pm
As far as how the bible shouldn’t be taken as a literal map or photograph but it should be a map which is a pointer just as Jesus was not so much the point but the pointer to God who is the point. Hmmmm. What does Jesus say about who the Word of God points to?
Joh 5:39 You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to me to have life.
Joh 5:41 “I do not accept human praise. Joh 5:42 I know that you do not have the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me. Yet if another man comes in his own name, you will accept him.
Joh 5:44 How can you believe when you accept each other’s praise and do not look for the praise that comes from the only God?
Joh 5:45 Do not suppose that I will be the one to accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
Joh 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for it was about me that he wrote.
Joh 5:47 But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe my words?”
Indeed, Jesus Christ is the point of the Bible. It is all about him. If you wanted to sum up the Bible in one word, you could do so by pointing to Christ. The Old Testament makes promises about Christ, and the New Testament keeps promises in Christ. [The Message of the Old Testament - Promises Made: Mark Dever]
I guess Jesus got it wrong hey?
February 6th, 2010 at 4:57 am
@ Joe Lewis
“If Jesus were to arrive today, I wonder how many of these same people would accept His messiahship?”
That much is certain: in view of what Spencer Burke says here, he cannot either, because Jesus is what..? A pointer..? To what..?
Sorry, this is nonsense, just bad theology.
February 6th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Ups.., I was refering to Tim King, of course, not Spencer Burke…
February 12th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
If I can just comment on one of the remarks that Tim King made. He says, “For me my primal narrative is the Jesus Story…I’m not going [to need] to forfeit that [to make peace]…” (@5:05).
Mr. King is wrong. He has forfeited part of the “Jesus Story.”
These are Jesus’ words from Luke 12:
49 “I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! 50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! 51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
Jesus said that faith in him would not bring peace on earth, but division. Tim King says that our belief in Jesus should bring peace on earth, and not division.
Unfortunately, the true gospel offends and causes division. The true gospel says that Jesus is the only way to eternal life. “No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6.) “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24.) People don’t want to believe this, hence the division.
It’s not that Christian’s want division. It’s that the only way to avoid division is to deny the Word of God and change the gospel. Christian’s do not change the gospel because they want to please God. Tim King is doing whatever he can to change the gospel to avoid division and please man.
Galatians 1 -
“8 But even if we or an angel from heaven [or Tim King] should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.”